[Commenter's comments in blue, my replies in black.]
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Jewish Women Against the Occupation
Not just freedom here, but everywhere
Only in English the sign reads Jewish women against the occupation. In the other languages, it just says 'women'. Do you have a problem with Jewish women who support the large-scale settlement of the land and security measures against Palestinian Arabs? Are you really ready to talk of freedom, when you do not even accept a fellow Jew whose opinion differs from your own?
Do you have a problem with Jewish women who support the large-scale settlement of the land and security measures against Palestinian Arabs?
I have a problem with illegal occupation. How about you, friend? Do you support it?
In and of itself, the term 'illegal' does not have a negative meaning. There exists an important (Jewish) principle of 'life over law'. Indeed, when one's physical life is in immediate danger, an individual may undertake actions which are otherwise deemed 'illegal'.
I think this principle is applied by the Israeli community as a whole, which must defend itself, again and again, against enemies who intend to destroy it. As long as this threat exists, the law, including any 'international' law, is practically less relevant than the will to survive.Since these conditions continue to prevail for the foreseeable future, yes, I will support the 'illegal occupation' or any other Israeli measures.
BTW, I am also in favor of the ongoing 'illegal occupation' of America by the white people.
Indeed, when one's physical life is in immediate danger, an individual may undertake actions which are otherwise deemed 'illegal'.
This likewise justifies the acts of the Palestinians that you, I presume, would take to be the treat to Israel. This is a circular argument that only feeds a cycle of violence and makes it self-perpetuating.
I think this principle is applied by the Israeli community as a whole
Not by the world as a whole, and more to the point, not by the Palestinians who are guaranteed a state by the very same UN Resolution by dint of which Israel itself claims legal existence. Were they fully furnished with the same rights, they would have the chance to build something the which they were unwilling to lose. Right now, they are a people with nothing to lose. We see the results.
I am also in favor of the ongoing 'illegal occupation' of America by the white people.
Yes, very clever. Where, though, are Israel's treaties with its native inhabitants, Israel's Royal Proclamation of 1763 (as such)?
In contrast with Israel's citizens whose lives are never secure, the individual Palestinian Arab's life is not in danger of a random attack. Neither is the Palestinian Arab nation at stake - something which does not yet exist can not be at risk.
The only thing REALLY being threatened is the Palestinian Arabs' blind hatred towards the Jews and Israel. They express extreme xenophobia and there is absolutely no justification for Arab anarchy and acts of terror. He who defends lawlessness and hooliganism as a way of life supports the demise of his own community and invites being 'occupied' forever. Same for Afghanistan, Iraq and all the other places.
Even while being under a constant threat of annihilation from its neighbors, the Jewish State manages to remain a free and democratic country, also for its own Arab citizens (20%). I suggest that this remarkable fact alone already exceeds such promises as were given in the 'Royal Proclamation' of 1763.
You're asking here for an artificial standard to be created for Israel alone, all others excepted, exempting it from the standards expected of the rest of the world. And I can illustrate the nature of it very plainly for you.
Suppose the shoe were on the other foot... suppose it were 1947, Arabs controlled the state of Palestine, and on the basis of such attrocities as the attack on the King David Hotel, et al., they had herded Jewish refugees behind walls, denied them work, bulldozed their homes for the crime of being related to people who were agitating for a Jewish state, killed them at checkpoints, and refused them a government on the international stage or one whose workings they did not supersede, overrule, and undermine. Now, on the basis that the Jewish refugees were a threat to the state of Palestine (and were it not for the fact that it existed as the artifice of a British protectorate at the time, this would essentially be the case), by your own logic, you would have to consent to the likewise treatment they experienced at the hands of the Palestinians as right as just in the pursuit of Palestine's right to self-defense. If you cannot, then your argument is, as I indicated, ethnically exceptionalist in its conception, and your position is hypocritical and cannot stand on the logical basis of equality of condition. If, on the other hand, you can consent to that treatment, then this argues away the aegis by right of which Israel claims its legitamacy, because it was created in prejudice against the rights of the existing population at the time, done so without the treaties or Royal Proclamation that retain the force of law and form a part of the Constitution (in Canada, at any rate; the United States may answer as it pleases).
It would, in fact, be impossible for Israel's assurances to its Arab population to in any way correspond to the original intention of the Royal Proclamation of 1763, which in part forbade British settlement of the interior beyond the Appalachians. In this aspect it was abrogated by the United States at the time of the Revolution (if not undermined prior to it), which perforce fell superfluous to the remainder of British North America.
Moreover, the argument that Israel, a nation armed with over a hundred nuclear weapons, is at risk of extinction at the hands of the Palestinians, a stateless people armed with rocks, is the height of a self-serving conceit that only the very very willful could accept as valid.
With regard to blind hatred... something about the beam in one's own eye, sir.
The 'artificial standard' for Israel is called the right to exist in peace. In some regions of the world, the right of Jews to live is not a given. Gaza is one of those places. If you are Jewish, praise yourself lucky that you do not live there.
Fact is, that the shoe is NOT on the other foot. Fact is, that Israel has quickly grown to become a high-tech society with an army which has not yet lost a war. Fact is, that the Middle East is one of the poorest regions in the world. Fact is also, that the Arab countries are ruled by decree, and that together, they have an annual production less than Spain.
No, the Jews are NOT morally equal to those who choose to hate them. Indeed, they are superior. That is how they miraculously survived mighty Rome and devastating places like Auschwitz. And they will also weather the actions of Palestinian Arab kidnappers, hooligans and hijackers.
The 'existing population' of British-ruled Palestine consisted of Arabs AND Jews. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arab. Before statehood, the Jewish nationalistic movement did well, because litteracy, the ability to deal with the government and legal courts and the knowledge of languages were not developed among the Arabs. The lands were legally acquired.
In contrast to the Jewish State, refugee Palestinian Arabs yearn to create A STATE WITHOUT JEWS. At gunpoint. Read their newspapers, their curriculum, their sermons. Read their Charter(s). Their plan is not acceptable to the world, that is why it fails. Don't blame Israel for the Arab intentions.
The 'artificial standard' for Israel is called the right to exist in peace.
Same standard exists for the Palestinians... and unless I'm very much mistaken, it's not their armies that are occupying Israel. Peace is as peace does.
Fact is, that the shoe is NOT on the other foot. Fact is, that Israel has quickly grown to become a high-tech society with an army which has not yet lost a war. Fact is also, that the Middle East is one of the poorest regions in the world. Fact is, that all the Arab countries together have an annual production less than Spain.
Fact is, this nicely puts the lie to your assertion that Israel's about to be blanked off the map... wouldn't you say? Clearly, the risk it incurs in simply ending the occupation, in the face of all that, is miniscule in the extreme.
Nice deke, by the way, but you avoided addressing my point. You're just talking over it.
And they will also weather the actions of Palestinian Arab kidnappers, hooligans and hyjackers.
Yes, for years and years and years to come, I'm afraid, thanks to attitudes like yours. Let's face it; you're not talking about peace or security, you're talking about triumphalism. "A boot stamping on a human face forever," to quote the late Mr. Orwell. For this, I'm expected to feel sympathy?
20% of Israel's citizens are Arab.
And growing more numerous annually. That's something that would give me pause, were I making grief for them. Not all that long ago, the Catholic population of Northern Ireland was discountable too...
You don't have to blame Israel for the Arab intentions.
Maybe I don't, but obviously they do.
Yes, Palestinian Arabs have the right to exist in peace, but theirs is a tribal society: peace is not (yet) in their book. In the entire Arab world there is 'eternal' strife between one family and another; between Sunni and Shi'a; Arab Muslim and Black Muslim; Muslim and Baha'i; Muslim and Kurd; Muslim and Christian; heterosexual and homosexual.
The war of Arabs against Israel is just another tribal war for them. Unlucky for Israel, traditional Western Jew-haters - including some Jews - fan the flames on the Arab side for the 'kick' they get out of it.
However, compared to the immense problems of the stagnant Arab and Muslim world, the Palestinian Arabs, who are already largely fed by Western agencies, get far too much attention. Also from you and me.
Yes, Palestinian Arabs have the right to exist in peace, but theirs is a tribal society:
It wouldn't matter if they were a Martian society. The point is, they have a right to their own state and self-determination, unqualified by the opinions of others, and regardless of whatever attitudes are ascribed to them either as a polity or as individuals. Exceptionalistic excuses don't impress me.
Unlucky for Israel, traditional Western Jew-haters - including some Jews - fan the flames on the Arab side for the 'kick' they get out of it.
The old trump card of shouting "anti-Semite" (a misnomer here anyway, since Arabs are also Semites) is intellectually disingenuous and people have increasingly less patience for that sort of cheap closure on debate. The fact is that Israel and its policies may be legitimately criticized without the source of criticism being hatred or bigotry, but a desire for justice and different ideas on how a lasting peace will be achieved.
the Palestinian Arabs, who are already largely fed by Western agencies, get far too much attention.
Far too little advocacy or action, I would counter.
'They have a right to their own state and self-determination'. Where did you get this extraordinary idea? Even if one UN-resolution after another would assert the Palestinian Arab refugees' NEED to self-govern, that would still not be a guarantee for success. There is no freedom in Gaza and the West-Bank, but neither did freedom make an appearance ANYWHERE else in the Arab world. It is ludicrous to blame Israel for the Arabs' ineptness.
It would be wonderful if antisemitism were just a 'trump card'. But it is not. Vicious, specific Jew-hatred is alive and kicking all over the Arab press. Look here for a sampling. Also, you can read this. I would say that Palestinian Arab bombings, kidnappings and murder attacks are motivated by antisemitism. Just watch their television: theirs is a racist war against the Jews.
When one understands that theirs is just a tribal war for power, it is possible to take Arab racism with a certain grain of salt. But America and Israel shall NOT allow the creation of a independent nation whose leading political party Hamas officially intends to destroy its neighbor(s). That is where we draw the line. Hostile Arabs can be under occupation forever, if that is what they want.
'They have a right to their own state and self-determination'. Where did you get this extraordinary idea?
Where did you get the idea it was extraordinary?
There is no freedom in Gaza and the West-Bank, but neither did freedom make an appearance ANYWHERE else in the Arab world.
Especially not in such places as are occupied by foreign armies. Of course, if you have no objections to such things on principle, perhaps the Italians might be invited back to oversee the administration of Israel as they did 2000 years ago? By your definition, that would not preclude the freedom of the Israeli people, who were, after all, a troublesome tribal people to the civilized Romans...
It would be wonderful if antisemitism were just a 'trump card'.
I have little doubt you wish it were so.
Jew-hatred is alive and kicking all over the Arab press.
Gee, I wonder why. After all, the rest of us just loved Germany when it was occupying France, after all.
Just watch their television: theirs is a racist war against the Jews.
Hmmm... well, I recently heard this little bit of racism from another quarter: "No, the Jews are NOT morally equal to those who choose to hate them. Indeed, they are superior." You might recognize the source. Pretty disgusting stuff, this racism, don't you think? Boy, I sure do. Not hard to see how it poisons the well, though.
Hostile Arabs can be under occupation forever, if that is what they want.
It seems obvious to me that is in fact what Israel wants. To quote again from Mr. Orwell:
'The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men.' He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: 'How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?'
Winston thought. 'By making him suffer,' he said.
'Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation."
In conjunction with the above, a couple of links for you, BTW: this one and this one, for starters.
Where did you get the idea it was extraordinary? - Most cultural groups in the world do not have their own country. Why should the Palestinian Arabs be supported to establish a sovereign state without Jews?
Especially not in such places as are occupied by foreign armies. - Syria has martial law. Saudia is ruled by one family. In Egypt, there is no democratic spirit. Sudan fights its own black Muslims. All Arab countries forbid the academic research of Islam. There is no freedom, religious or otherwise, anywhere in the Arab world. Why blame Israel for the Arab condition?
the rest of us just loved Germany when it was occupying France - Even when most of Europe was occupied, people did not hate the Germans as such. The fight was against Nazism, not against Germany or the Germans. Have you read the link regarding Arab antisemitism?
Pretty disgusting stuff, this racism, don't you think? - In contrast with the Arab countries, Israel allows full religious freedom. Do you perhaps think it is wrong for Israel to act in a morally superior way?
It seems obvious to me that is in fact what Israel wants. - I think it is fine for Israel to defend itself against attacks. If the Palestinian Arabs really wish to continue their war, that is fine, too. However, the efforts towards their national independence will then be put on hold. No negotiations under fire.
By making him suffer. [...] In conjunction with the above, a couple of links for you. - All humanity suffers, even in Holland there are real problems. But blaming the Jewish People is plain age-old antisemitism. One may have prejudices against the Jews. It's OK. But kidnapping Israel's soldiers or firing rockets at Israel's non-combattants are simply acts of war. In contrast with past centuries, the Jews can now respond militarily. May the best army win.
I'd like to bring this to a close. This is not a forum for philosophical debate; this is a place for me to share photos I've taken, comment on what I found interesting about them, and enable others to express themselves with relation to the photos. I paid for this account. I consider it an extension of my home. You're welcome to come in and look around, comment on what you like and make suggestions with regard to its presentation, but persistent attempts to rearrange my intellectual furniture in a venue like this amounts to real rudeness. I think I've been patient and indulgent in giving you free voice here for last three days, particularly when you were generally unwilling to address my points before simply tossing your own and presenting them as a new salad. I've done my bit as the good host. Please do me the courtesy of finding a corner outside for your soapbox.
For what it's worth: I understand your point of view and the points your making; I simply do not agree with them anymore. Prior to the intafada, I did; I held views nearly identical to yours. Since then, I've slowly had to change my opinions; I've come to see the ones I held previously as bigoted and supremacist. What I see when I look at the Palestinian areas today and the treatment of its people and its sputtering attempts at self-government is a huge bear-baiting show with human beings in the place of the bears, kept in chains to be poked with sticks, their every roar and swipe trumped as justification to poke them all the harder. It's disgusting, and the longer it persists, the less fellow-feeling I have for Israel, though it once abounded in me. Many Israelis have taken all the wrong lessons from the Holocaust: "Never Again" should mean everyone, not just them. A bullied child will either grow and learn to become a defender of the meek, or shrink and adopt the ways of violence to become a bully himself. That Israel, at least for the time being, has elected the latter path is abundantly clear to me, and I cannot support that. More to the point, neither can the women in the photograph.
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